DevOps Consultant and Network Engineer Zensar TechnologiesDevOps Consultant and Network EngineerPalo Alto, CA$120,000–$150,000 / yearContractorFull timeWe’ve learned that employee happiness requires more than a competitive paycheck, and our employee value proposition—grow, own, achieve, learn (GOAL)—lays out the core opportunities we seek to foster for every employee. Teamwork and collaboration are critical to Zensar’s mission and success, and our teams work on a diverse and challenging mix of technologies across a broad industry spectrum.
Network Engineer ECLARONetwork EngineerSan Francisco, CAThe architecture team sets direction and designs the platform; this role keeps it running well - handling moves / adds / changes, monitoring, troubleshooting, and incident resolution across a leaf / spine (Clos) fabric. It's an ideal fit for an Engineer with solid hands-on Juniper experience who wants deep operational ownership and a clear path to grow into fabric, automation, and overlay technologies.
Senior Information Technology Engineer, IT Security (IT/OT Firewall Administration) EBMUDSenior Information Technology Engineer, IT Security (IT/OT Firewall Administration)Oakland, CA$157,488–$191,424 / yearFull timeThe most competitive candidates for the Senior IT Security Engineer position will possess strong working knowledge of firewall administration in a highly available production environment; networking experience; threat intelligence; experience in critical infrastructure-including ICS/OT firewall management; and project management principles and practices and cybersecurity best practices. Experience is desired in three or more of the following disciplines: · At least five years of hands-on experience administering firewalls in enterprise-scale, high-availability production environments, including policy management, troubleshooting, and rule lifecycle maintenance.
DevOps Platform Development Engineer (Bilingual Mandarin) ComriseDevOps Platform Development Engineer (Bilingual Mandarin)Palo Alto, CA$150,000–$240,000 / yearFull timeCollaborate closely with platform engineering teams in China as well as overseas infrastructure, networking, security, and business teams to manage implementation schedules, dependencies, and risks, while providing feedback to improve platform capabilities for international deployment scenarios. Participate in the day-to-day operations and incident response of overseas production environments, quickly troubleshoot deployment, infrastructure, and platform integration issues, and drive root cause analysis and long-term corrective actions.
Network Manager MONTERRA CREDIT UNIONNetwork ManagerRedwood City, CA$133,000–$156,000 / yearDesired technical skills: Windows 2016/19/22 servers, Windows desktops/workstations, VMware, VPN, Exchange server/Active Directory, Microsoft 365, Google Workspace, AWS, MS Office applications, Cisco and Arista routers/switches/firewalls, LAN/WAN technologies, network backup and anti-virus systems, and Cisco Webex. WAN and LAN Management: Plan, design, implement, control, and monitor WAN and LAN systems, including managing SD-WAN network security (both internal and external) through user specifications, activity tracking systems, and software security options.
Network DevOps Engineer Epitec StaffingNetwork DevOps EngineerPalo Alto, CASummary Our client is seeking a hands-on Network DevOps Engineer to support network automation, cloud infrastructure deployment, and multi-cloud connectivity initiatives across a large-scale enterprise environment. The ideal candidate enjoys solving complex infrastructure challenges, building automated solutions, and supporting highly available environments across multiple cloud platforms.
Lead Software Engineer, Middleware Reliability Engineering Visa Technology and Operations LLCLead Software Engineer, Middleware Reliability EngineeringFoster City, CA$192,300–$307,600 / yearFamiliarity with AI/ML frameworks and chatbot integrations for operational automation Middleware Expertise • Understanding of middleware technologies (Message Queues, Service Bus, API • Gateways) • Experience with application servers (Tomcat, JBoss, WebSphere) • Knowledge of integration platforms and their deployment patterns • Proficiency in troubleshooting and performance optimization Education • Bachelor's or Master's degree in Computer Science or related field, or equivalent experience • We value hands-on experience and continuous learning over specific degrees. • Solid understanding of Linux/Unix systems, networking protocols, certificate management, secret management, system design, cloud platforms (AWS, • Azure, GCP), and containerization (Kubernetes, Docker • Proficiency with monitoring tools (Prometheus, Grafana, Datadog, etc.), logging systems (ELK stack, Splunk), and tracing tools (Jaeger, Zipkin).
Senior Security Operations Engineer VailexaSenior Security Operations EngineerSan Francisco, CAYou’ll partner closely with Engineering, IT, Legal, and Business leaders to reduce risk, respond to incidents, and continuously raise the security bar across the company. • AI fluency: ability to use AI tools to accelerate investigations (summarization, clustering, query generation) while validating outputs and protecting sensitive data.
NewCyber Security Engineer - Sr. Consultant level Visa Technology and Operations LLCCyber Security Engineer - Sr. Consultant levelFoster City, CA$180,600–$289,300 / yearThe ideal candidate is a strong security engineer and problem solver with deep experience in Python‑based services, cloud security engineering, API‑driven architectures, and automation, and who is excited to apply GenAI and autonomous agent technologies to modern security challenges. Visa’s Cyber Security team is seeking a Cyber Security Engineer to design, build, and operate large‑scale, cloud‑native and AI‑driven security platforms that protect Visa’s global brand, networks, products, and data.
NewStaff Systems Engineer, Microsoft Teams Visa Technology and Operations LLCStaff Systems Engineer, Microsoft TeamsFoster City, CA$131,600–$233,700 / yearAs a Microsoft Teams Staff Systems Engineer, you will own the end‑to‑end deployment, optimization, and evolution of the Teams environment, including meetings, chat, channels, voice, platform integrations, security, device integration, and space booking capabilities. Maximize AI and agentic automation opportunities across Microsoft Teams and the broader Microsoft 365 platform, including Copilot, Graph‑based automation, workflow intelligence, meeting and communication insights, and next‑generation collaboration agents.
Senior Sales Engineer JobotSenior Sales EngineerPleasanton, CA$300,000–$330,000 / yearThe founding team includes senior leaders and technical pioneers from industry giants like AWS, Cisco, VMware, and Gigamon - holding dozens of patents and having built critical systems at some of the most respected tech companies in the industry. Information collected and processed as part of your Jobot candidate profile, and any job applications, resumes, or other information you choose to submit is subject to Jobot's Privacy Policy, as well as the Jobot California Worker Privacy Notice and Jobot Notice Regarding Automated Employment Decision Tools which are available at jobot.com/legal.
Staff Software Engineer, Crypto Program Visa Technology and Operations LLCStaff Software Engineer, Crypto ProgramFoster City, CA$146,200–$233,700 / yearVisa is a world leader in payments technology, facilitating transactions between consumers, merchants, financial institutions and government entities across more than 200 countries and territories, dedicated to uplifting everyone, everywhere by being the best way to pay and be paid. As a Visa Software Engineer, you will be an integral part of a multi-functional development team inventing, designing, building, and testing software products that reach a truly global customer base.
Software Engineer - Sr Consultant level Visa Technology and Operations LLCSoftware Engineer - Sr Consultant levelFoster City, CA$169,100–$270,800 / yearYou will work on innovative solutions that combine deep technical expertise with AI/ML capabilities to enhance developer productivity, improve customer experiences, and drive next-generation commercial payment and money movement technology for B2B, B2C, P2P, and G2C flows. Visa is a world leader in payments technology, facilitating transactions between consumers, merchants, financial institutions and government entities across more than 200 countries and territories, dedicated to uplifting everyone, everywhere by being the best way to pay and be paid.
End point engineer - Contract TalentBurst, Inc.End point engineer - ContractPalo Alto, CAUnderstanding of the endpoint and identity considerations unique to AI tools: network allowlisting for LLM API endpoints, DLP policy tuning for AI-generated content, user provisioning workflows, and communicating rollout plans across IT, Security, and end-user teams. 1. Unified Endpoint Management (UEM) Daily Operations: Perform daily upkeep, system maintenance, and regular patch management for all managed endpoints to ensure security and stability.
Software Engineer, CDN VercelSoftware Engineer, CDNSan Francisco, CARemote$196,000–$294,000 / yearOur team orchestrates deploying, routing and serving for our customers through capabilities and tooling we maintain that leverage our own and other cloud providers infrastructure for networking, TLS termination, routing, storage, caching and other novel edge services. As a member of the Edge team, you will help to scale and improve our infrastructure, availability and reliability by working with our backend engineers and product team to identify problems, create tooling and automation.
Railway Engineer - Remote Teoresi GroupRailway Engineer - RemoteSan Francisco, CARemoteIntegration of onboard and wayside subsystems, including signaling components, sensors, communication interfaces, and control units, into system-level testing environments (e.g., HIL/SIL). At Teoresi, we specialize in supporting companies in creating projects using cutting-edge technologies such as self-driving cars and nanotechnology for the medical field.
Principal Hardware Engineer, DC/DC Power MicrosoftPrincipal Hardware Engineer, DC/DC PowerMountain View, CA$142,800–$274,800 / yearDoctorate in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, or related field AND 3+ years technical engineering experience OR Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, or related field AND 6+ years technical engineering experience. To achieve this goal, the CHSE (Cloud Hardware Systems Engineering) team is instrumental in defining and delivering operational measures of success for hardware manufacturing, improving the planning process, quality, delivery, scale and sustainability related to Microsoft cloud hardware.
Senior Firmware Engineer MicrosoftSenior Firmware EngineerMountain View, CA$119,800–$234,700 / yearDoctorate in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 1+ year(s) technical engineering experience OR Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 4+ years technical engineering experience OR Bachelors Degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 5+ years technical engineering experience OR equivalent experience. There is a different range applicable to specific work locations, within the San Francisco Bay area and New York City metropolitan area, and the base pay range for this role in those locations is USD $160,200 - $261,000 per year.
Principal Silicon Engineer MicrosoftPrincipal Silicon EngineerMountain View, CA$142,800–$274,800 / yearDoctorate in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 5+ years technical engineering experience OR Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 8+ years technical engineering experience OR Bachelors Degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 12+ years technical engineering experience OR equivalent experience. Doctorate in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 3+ years technical engineering experience OR Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 6+ years technical engineering experience OR Bachelors Degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, or related field AND 8+ years technical engineering experience OR equivalent experience.
Staff Machine Learning Engineer (Research Scientist) - DFAI PlaidStaff Machine Learning Engineer (Research Scientist) - DFAISan Francisco, CA$249,120–$367,920 / yearPhD: 5–9+ years of industry experience with evidence of technical leadership (tech lead, principal/staff-equivalent roles) and end-to-end production ownership. We work with thousands of companies like Venmo, SoFi, several of the Fortune 500, and many of the largest banks to make it easy for people to connect their financial accounts to the apps and services they want to use.
NewIAC Engineer JobotIAC EngineerSan Francisco, CA$50–$80 / hourInformation collected and processed as part of your Jobot candidate profile, and any job applications, resumes, or other information you choose to submit is subject to Jobot's Privacy Policy, as well as the Jobot California Worker Privacy Notice and Jobot Notice Regarding Automated Employment Decision Tools which are available at jobot.com/legal. Strong working knowledge of at least one major cloud provider (AWS, GCP, or Azure) including networking, IAM, and compute services.
NewStaff Software Engineer - Cloud Infrastructure RipplingStaff Software Engineer - Cloud InfrastructureSan Francisco, CAAs a Staff Software Engineer on the Cloud Infrastructure team, youll be in a high-leverage role tackling complex scaling challenges - from managing massive Kubernetes fleets across all accounts to architecting multi-region disaster recovery and agentic AI workflows. For office-based employees (employees who live within a defined radius of a Rippling office), Rippling considers working in the office, at least three days a week under current policy, to be an essential function of the employees role.
NewPower Electronics R&D Engineer Gables Search GroupPower Electronics R&D EngineerFremont, CA$180,000–$200,000This role is focused on advanced power electronics, power conversion, AC/DC, DC/DC, HVDC/DC, inverter-based systems, and next-generation high-power conversion platforms for advanced infrastructure, data center power, EV charging, charging systems, and energy storage applications. This is an opportunity to join a newly forming R&D team working on real-world, high-power engineering challenges with strong visibility, global collaboration, and meaningful influence over future power conversion platforms.
Senior Forward Deployed Engineer (DevOps/SRE) JobotSenior Forward Deployed Engineer (DevOps/SRE)Pleasanton, CA$300,000–$350,000 / yearThe founding team includes senior leaders and technical pioneers from industry giants like AWS, Cisco, VMware, and Gigamon - holding dozens of patents and having built critical systems at some of the most respected tech companies in the industry. 6+ years of experience in Site Reliability Engineering, DevOps, Platform Engineering, or similar infrastructure-focused roles, including technical leadership or end-to-end customer delivery.
Level 2/3 Support Engineer JobotLevel 2/3 Support EngineerSan Francisco, CA$40–$70 / hourResponsibilities: Provide Level 2/3 technical support to our clients, resolving complex issues related to various technologies including MDM, SSO, MFA, Slack, Azure, MAC, Windows, Intune, Imaging, Deployment, and others. Information collected and processed as part of your Jobot candidate profile, and any job applications, resumes, or other information you choose to submit is subject to Jobot's Privacy Policy, as well as the Jobot California Worker Privacy Notice and Jobot Notice Regarding Automated Employment Decision Tools which are available at jobot.com/legal.
NewQuantitative Engineer (Private Markets) JobotQuantitative Engineer (Private Markets)San Francisco, CA$300,000–$360,000 / yearBacked by a $16M Series A round from major global asset managers and investment banks, our platform currently tracks: Over $300 billion in proprietary transaction data Approximately $4 trillion in historical funding-round data Comprehensive coverage of more than 100,000 private companies and investors An elite institutional client base that collectively manages over $52 trillion in assets The Opportunity This is not a traditional internal quantitative role. Location: San Francisco, CA (In-Office 4 Days/Week)Compensation: $300,000 – $350,000 + Equity About the Company We are a rapidly growing, recently funded Series A fintech company building the data, pricing, and transaction infrastructure for the global private markets.
NewSenior AWS DevOps Engineer JobotSenior AWS DevOps EngineerMilpitas, CA$155,000–$165,000 / yearInformation collected and processed as part of your Jobot candidate profile, and any job applications, resumes, or other information you choose to submit is subject to Jobot's Privacy Policy, as well as the Jobot California Worker Privacy Notice and Jobot Notice Regarding Automated Employment Decision Tools which are available at jobot.com/legal. Our platform integrates with employers and payroll systems to provide real-time wage access and financial wellness tools that reduce reliance on payday loans, overdraft fees, and other costly alternatives.
NewSenior Developer Relations Engineer, Developer Advocate, Google Maps, Earth and AI Google LLCSenior Developer Relations Engineer, Developer Advocate, Google Maps, Earth and AIMountain View, CAPart community manager and part developer advocate, Developer Relations Engineers collaborate with developers at conferences and online, and advocate for developers interests internally at Google. Internally, you work with product engineering teams to improve our products by conveying feedback from developers, reviewing API designs and testing new features.
Developer Relations Engineer, Android AI Google LLCDeveloper Relations Engineer, Android AISan Francisco, CAWe provide the platform for original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) and developers to build compelling computing devices (smartphones, tablets, TVs, wearables, etc) that run the best apps/services for everyone in the world. Internally, you work with product engineering teams to improve our products by conveying feedback from developers, reviewing API designs and testing new features.
NewDeveloper Relations Engineer, Gaming Google LLCDeveloper Relations Engineer, GamingMountain View, CAAdvocate for game developers internally and influence Google developer product strategy by working with Product Management, Engineering, Marketing, Business Development, Public Relations, and other cross-functional teams. We provide the platform for original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) and developers to build compelling computing devices (smartphones, tablets, TVs, wearables, etc) that run the best apps/services for everyone in the world.
NewSenior Developer Relations Engineer, AI Data Cloud Google LLCSenior Developer Relations Engineer, AI Data CloudSan Francisco, CAPart community manager and part developer advocate, Developer Relations Engineers collaborate with developers at conferences and online, and advocate for developers interests internally at Google. Internally, you work with product engineering teams to improve our products by conveying feedback from developers, reviewing API designs and testing new features.
Network Engineer, Senior Blue Cross and Blue Shield AssociationNetwork Engineer, SeniorOakland, CAThe ideal candidate has deep hands-on experience in troubleshooting, network configuration, and production support, and works closely with Principal and Consultant Network Engineers to implement solutions and maintain reliable network services. Strong hands-on experience with: Cisco routing and switching (Catalyst, Nexus), Wireless networking (Cisco APs and controllers), Network security (Palo Alto, Cisco Firepower, VPN technologies), Load balancing (F5 or equivalent).
Senior Cloud Networking Engineer Skylo TechnologiesSenior Cloud Networking EngineerMountain View, CaliforniaOur direct-to-device service is live on millions of activated devices across five continents, covering more than 72 million square kilometers, in partnership with leading satellite operators, mobile network operators, Tier-1 chipset makers, and OEMs worldwide. This role will partner closely with cloud, DevOps, and security teams to deliver reliable cloud networking architectures that meet the needs of a growing, mission-critical platform.
Network Engineer StratAcuity Staffing Partners IncNetwork EngineerSan Francisco, CA$50–$70 / hourIn terms of professional development, Everforth Apex hosts an on-demand training program, provides access to certification prep and a library of technical and leadership courses/books/seminars once you have 6+ months of tenure, and certification discounts and other perks to associations that include CompTIA and IIBA. Everforth Apex also offers a HSA (Health Savings Account on the HDHP plan), a SupportLinc Employee Assistance Program (EAP) with up to 8 free counseling sessions, a corporate discount savings program and other discounts.
NewSenior Cloud Networking Engineer SkyloSenior Cloud Networking EngineerMountain View, CA$145,000–$155,000 / yearOur direct-to-device service is live on millions of activated devices across five continents, covering more than 72 million square kilometers, in partnership with leading satellite operators, mobile network operators, Tier-1 chipset makers, and OEMs worldwide. This role will partner closely with cloud, DevOps, and security teams to deliver reliable cloud networking architectures that meet the needs of a growing, mission-critical platform.
Network Engineer Koch IncNetwork EngineerFremont, CA$150,000–$180,000 / yearNetwork Engineer - Bridgewater, New Jersey, United States - 190982 - Koch. Koch Engineered Solutions.
Senior Network Engineer PeopleNTech LLCSenior Network EngineerSanta Clara, CAZscaler Zero Trust Ecosystem: Comprehensive experience managing Zscaler Internet Access (ZIA), Zscaler Private Access (ZPA), Zscaler Digital Experience (ZDX), and Zscaler Branch Connectors (ZTB). If you are a tech-driven problem solver who thrives in a collaborative, large-scale IT environment, enjoys mentoring teammates, and wants to work hands-on with cutting-edge network and security tools, we want you to help power our infrastructure.
Network Engineer - Data for Autonomous Systems Meter, Inc.Network Engineer - Data for Autonomous SystemsSan Francisco, CA$50–$80 / hourAt Meter, we're building vertically integrated networking systems and now we're using the data they generate to power the next generation of autonomous infrastructure. Your work will directly feed into the pipelines that power Meter's AI models, and help shape how intelligent systems reason about networks in the real world.
Cloud Infrastructure Network Engineer Bright Vision TechnologiesCloud Infrastructure Network EngineerMilpitas, CARemoteFull timeThe ideal candidate combines deep traditional networking knowledge with cloud-native networking patterns, has built production cloud networks at meaningful scale, and brings strong automation discipline to networking work. In this role you will work closely with cross-functional partners — product, design, engineering, operations, and business stakeholders — to translate ambiguous requirements into well-engineered solutions, and will be expected to raise the bar through code review, design review, and mentorship of more junior engineers.
Senior Software Engineer, Networking PeregrineSenior Software Engineer, NetworkingSan Francisco, CA$200,000–$250,000 / yearBacked by leading Silicon Valley investors, Peregrine helps public safety organizations, state and local and governments, federal agencies, and private-sector institutions address society's challenges with unprecedented speed and accuracy. In this role, you will design and build the control plane and automation systems that power network connectivity at scale, while still being close enough to the infrastructure to debug real-world issues when they arise.
Senior Software Engineer, Networking Peregrine Technologies IncSenior Software Engineer, NetworkingSan Francisco, CA$200,000–$250,000 / yearBacked by leading Silicon Valley investors, Peregrine helps public safety organizations, state and local and governments, federal agencies, and private-sector institutions address society's challenges with unprecedented speed and accuracy. In this role, you will design and build the control plane and automation systems that power network connectivity at scale, while still being close enough to the infrastructure to debug real-world issues when they arise.
Network Engineer I AuroraNetwork Engineer IMountain View, CA$88,000–$121,000 / yearWorking closely with senior network engineers, you'll support day-to-day network operations, assist with deployments, and develop your troubleshooting skills on real-world connectivity challenges at scale. Aurora expects commitment to our safety policies from every employee, and seeks candidates who take an active responsibility, can contribute to building an atmosphere of trust, and invest in the organization's long-term success by prioritizing working safely, no matter what.
Senior Network Engineer (Palo Alto Firewall Specialist) Triune InfomaticsSenior Network Engineer (Palo Alto Firewall Specialist)Santa Clara, CAThe engineer will be responsible for enterprise network operations, firewall administration, wireless support, Azure networking, troubleshooting, and infrastructure improvements while working closely with infrastructure and security teams onsite. This requires strong production experience with Cisco networking, Palo Alto firewalls, and Cisco Meraki wireless infrastructure.
IT Network Engineer PETALUMA HEALTH CENTER, INCIT Network EngineerPetaluma, CASummary: The IT Network Engineer is responsible for connecting PHC with its growing network of clinics, as well as administrative sites, remote (AWS) data centers, local data centers, 3rd party vendors and partners to provide excellent patient care to all our patients. Education/Experience: Bachelor's degree with a technical major, such as engineering or computer science or equivalent; or six to eight years related experience and/or training; or equivalent combination of education and experience in System Administration or Networking.
Sr. Software Development Engineer - AWS Networking Application, SIDR Amazon.com IncSr. Software Development Engineer - AWS Networking Application, SIDRSanta Clara, CAWe are looking for talented software engineer that want to get hands on experience with Software Defined Networking (SDN), hyper scale data center networks, cloud infrastructure, large-scale software deployments, algorithms and SOA. We pioneered cloud computing and never stopped innovating - that's why customers from the most successful startups to Global 500 companies trust our robust suite of products and services to power their businesses.
Network Engineer Artech LLCNetwork EngineerAlameda, CA$60–$63 / hourGood knowledge of PAN firewalls architecture, ACLs, policies, NATs, IPSEC VPNs, Global protect VPNs. Provide excellent troubleshooting skills in identifying and resolving complex networking issues.
Senior Network Engineer, Robotics, DeepMind Google LLCSenior Network Engineer, Robotics, DeepMindMountain View, CAWe're looking for roboticists, designers, hardware and software engineers to help us explore these possibilities, develop breakthrough technologies, and build new products that could help millions of people. As a Network Engineer, you will own the network lifecycle for next-generation robotic systems deployed across research labs, major global conferences, and unpredictable remote test environments.
Principal Network Engineer Roblox CorpPrincipal Network EngineerSan Mateo, CA$295,250–$345,040 / yearEvery day, tens of millions of people come to Roblox to explore, create, play, learn, and connect with friends in 3D immersive digital experiences- all created by our global community of developers and creators. A career at Roblox means you'll be working to shape the future of human interaction, solving unique technical challenges at scale, and helping to create safer, more civil shared experiences for everyone.
Network Engineer I Aurora Innovation IncNetwork Engineer IMountain View, CA$88,000–$121,000 / yearWorking closely with senior network engineers, you'll support day-to-day network operations, assist with deployments, and develop your troubleshooting skills on real-world connectivity challenges at scale. Aurora expects commitment to our safety policies from every employee, and seeks candidates who take an active responsibility, can contribute to building an atmosphere of trust, and invest in the organization's long-term success by prioritizing working safely, no matter what.
Software Engineer, Models Meter, Inc.Software Engineer, ModelsSan Francisco, CAIn addition to your customers, network engineers, you'll partner closely with two research engineers who have deep ML backgrounds and a clear picture of what training data needs to look like. When a network engineer looks at a set of device stats and figures out it's upstream packet loss - not a hardware failure, not a misconfiguration, specifically upstream packet loss - that reasoning lives in their head.